Gorilla’s Guides

Thank you for your reply. It brings up many thoughts in me, but instead of reacting immediately, I want to sit with your words for a day before responding. You and your family, as always, are in my prayers.

Christ’s peace,

Mike+

Peace be to you Michael. It is a hard and difficult subject to talk about time for thought and prayer is always time spent well.

In beginning to write this, I first thought of what to call you. You said that we are brothers in humanity, which makes me glad because I feel the same way. I believe we are brothers as children of God. We do not choose our brothers and sisters – God chooses them for us … and I believe in some way I do not understand God has chosen us as brothers to have this relationship.

As brothers, I hope we can grow to be friends. In this day and under these circumstances that would certainly be extraordinary. So I will open with “my brother” in hopes that can be a tie that binds us together through the challenges of this relationship.

My brother, let me first thank you for your gracious understanding of my family situation. You are right that God fills our relationships with tests, and that is what has been happening to my wife, Robin, and I. Thank you for understanding.

One thing that has become clear to me is that you know Christianity and our texts much better than I know Islam and your texts. I read The Holy Qur’an many years ago when I was younger than you, but have not read it since. I realize now it is long since past time for me to make another careful reading of it – so in the coming weeks and months I will do that, so I can approach the understanding of your scripture that you have of mine.

The portion of the Gospel you quoted was Jesus’ commandment to love God and to love neighbor as self. It is the central commandment of our faith as Jesus has given it to us. I think we can both agree that loving God with everything we are is a central piece of both our faiths.

But what does it mean to love your neighbor as yourself?

You say:
“Love and a slavish servitude in the face of aggression and treachery are two very different things. I am required to live in peace with my neighbour. To treat my neighbour justly. To treat my neighbour with compassion where the situation is one calling for compassion.”

I completely agree with this. We are to love one another AND love ourselves. That means WE deserve to be treated justly, to be treated with compassion. We are to love each other because each person bears the image of God. We bear that image, too. So we must not accept being treated unjustly. We must demand to be treated with dignity.

Where as a Christian I disagree with you is when you say:

“I am not required to love my neighbour when he makes war against me.”

For me as a Christian, the love commandment is absolute. I am always required to love my neighbor. But that doesn’t mean I am to allow my neighbor to denigrate me. That is not love because ultimately my neighbor’s denigration of me is not only deadly to me it is deadly to him as well. When we treat each other unjustly and abusively — when we make war on each other — the aggressor is the victim as well because he denigrates and desecrates not only the image of God in the other but the image of God he bears.

The American soldier who abuses the Iraki child not only abuses that child, but he becomes less of a person himself, less of the image of God he is called to be and bear. So it is not loving to him to allow him to continue to do that because it shapes him in a way that is contrary to God’s will for him.

The question then becomes how do you lovingly get him to stop.

I am very aware as I write this that, in terms of the scale of violence in your life, for me this is theoretical rather than practical. I do not live in a situation where my family has been killed and is being killed. For me loving my enemy is loving someone who has insulted me or cheated me or betrayed me … not someone who has murdered my parents. There is an immediacy to the killing and destruction that is happening in your life.

Yet even still, the model of Christ is never to stop loving. As Jesus hung on the cross, he said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” It was an extraordinary thing to do – a divine thing to do. I certainly could not expect or ask any Iraki to say that of any American. And yet as Christians, that is what I believe Christ calls us to do.

We kill you and you kill us. And yes, we started it and you did not ask for it and in every way imaginable we are in the wrong. But I cannot accept that in any situation killing is good or should be rejoiced in. I accept that it is understandable when human beings have been put through such horror that they rejoice in the death of their oppressors, but I believe that is just further evidence of how great the damage done by the oppressor has been. It does not make it right or good – just tragically understandable.

Throughout history, violence has always produced more violence. It is a lesson my country has never learned, and you are paying the price for that … but we are paying the price for it as well because with every violent act we commit on your soil, we are losing our soul.

We kill you and you kill us. Where does it stop? Certainly, I want it to stop with us stopping. But every death on either side merely strengthens the resolve of the other. I can feel that in your own hatred of us. As Gandhi said, “an eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind.”

There is much more I want to say about your last paragraph – but I will save it for later because this is already too long! I was cautioned by both Gor and Dubhaltach that your closing words were hard and harsh and I needed to be prepared for that. But actually, I agree with most if not all of what you have said there. It fills me with shame, but I cannot argue with it. That said, there is still much to discuss.

You and your family are in my prayers this night and every day and night. I pray for peace in our hearts and in your land. Thank you again for your open mind and heart. I pray that my mind and heart may be as open to you.

Christ’s peace,
Mike+

Peace to you Michael. I am not going to contradict Imam Ali who was who it was who first said that! :-)

I am glad that we agree that we are brothers in humanity. I too hope we can become friends.

Yes I have read some Christian texts and asked Christian friends and priests questions.

I am glad that you are going to read the Holy Qur’an again. I will offer Du’s suggestion that you may find it easier to start with some of the shorter chapters that deal with events you already have heard of such as Maryam. You will find them in the later half. The chapters of the earlier half would require you to know something of early Islamic history to understand many of the references.

I will pray that you benefit to the greatest degree from your reading.

I do not rejoice in death it is a numbness as if part of me has died or been stunned I can feel that it is absent as if I have lost a limb. As to my hate – I make no secret of it. But if you study the Holy Qur’an and the Hadiths or perhaps even just read a good biography of the The Prophet (PBUH) you will see that we are commanded by God to make peace where possible. No matter how much I might hate trying to make peace I must try to swallow my hate and do it. I have never read that God would make it either easy or enjoyable.

You and I – we are not enemies, and I make no secret that I am using this to try to find out how to understand at least some Americans and if God grants it use that knowledge to try to do whatever small part will be mine in trying to build peace for when the war is over or at the least a lenghty truce declared.

It is with your enemies my brother in humanity that you must make peace.

I have just returned from traveling and have read your post. I want to get some sleep before I answer as it is getting late here. When I do write, I want to tell you a little more about myself (so you know whom you are talking with!) but also tell you of a former student of mine who is even right now one of the American soldiers in your country.

Perhaps that will help you “figure out how to understand at least some Americans.”

It is a strange and terrible thing to have two brothers on opposite sides of this war. When I read reports of American deaths, I look at the names and hope not to see his. When I hear reports of Iraki deaths, I dread an email from Mark with news about you or your family.

And yet everyone is somebody’s son, somebody’s daughter. Every death brings wailing.

More tomorrow.

Christ’s peace,

Mike+

Let me tell you a little bit about myself — what I do and what I have done.

I am an Episcopal priest, but I do not currently serve a congregation. I run a non-profit organization called Episcopalians for Global Reconciliation, which helps people throughout the Episcopal Church get involved in work around the world to eliminate poverty. We use the U.N. Millennium Development Goals (http://www.e4gr.org/mdgs/fast_facts.html) as the temporal structure for this work, but the motivation for and power behind this work is following Jesus.

I have been doing this work for a year and a half, before which I spent 7 years as a university chaplain. My congregation was college students at Washington University in St. Louis.

Several years ago, one of my students — a young man let us call him “Dave” — decided that he was going to join the Army after graduation. I tried to talk him out of it. I was not so much worried that he would be hurt or killed but that he would be put in a situation where he would be hurt or killed. But this was before President Bush was in office, and he was convinced that he would never see combat … and the chance for travel and professional advancement in the army was excellent. He also believed that the Army served to protect people at home and abroad. I can say from our conversations that although I disagreed with his decision, his motivations were good.

He served two tours of duty in Afghanistan and thought he was done. He moved back here to St. Louis with his wife, only to be called up again because the U.S. Army is so shorthanded right now. He is currently somewhere in Irak.

I think of him often … and of others like him. The U.S. armed forces do not come from the upper class of America … most of them come from our lower economic classes. SOme of the great sin of what our nation is doing in Irak is that in recruiting soldiers they prey on those who have fewer other choices — their families have little money. They also prey on people like my student by telling them they will be protecting and serving humanity rather than invading and subjugating a people.

There are certainly many American soldiers who know what is really happening in Irak and agree with it. They believe that America should be running the world and that our occupation of your country is “for your own good.”

But there are also those like “Dave” – who are there and don’t want to be. Who perhaps could change the decisions they made that got them there.

This is not to excuse. But it is to say that there is hope for peace when we get beyond the people corrupted by wealth and greed … the people who do not risk their lives but send others to kill or be killed thousands of miles away from where they sit in safety. There is hope in the goodness of people.

I live in hope that he can be a force of good in Irak, even as people like you justifiably wish him gone. I pray that if the two of you meet that God’s grace would intervene and that you could see each other not with eyes of fear but with the eyes of possibility of love.

I ask a great deal in that… much, too much, I fear. But I can hope.

In the meantime, I pray for you and your family … and for Dave and his. And for peace.

Christ’s peace,

Mike+

Peace to you

This is the link to the site given by Michael in his comment above in clickable form

This leads me to ask a question of what you would consider courteous. At present only the following people have access to this posting and to these comments:

* You.
* My good friend Dubhaltach.
* Me.

It is my hope that perhaps at a time in the future to be agreed between us we could open this conversation that people may “hear” what we said to each other. Both du and I are able to access the comments you make as records in the database. If you would like it either of us could make the links clickable in your text or if you prefer it can be done as I have done it here.

Peace to you Michael and thank you for telling me some of what you do and of what you used to do. We agree I think that there is a duty of charity. It has been explained to me that temporal means either fleeting as in meaning not eternal and also meaning of this world using the expression “temporal possessions of the church” and “lords spiritual and temporal” as examples. It is present in all the teachings of all the Prophets (PBUT) that God has to all the nations and the tribes of the world.

Thank you also for telling me about your former student. I was a little puzzled by this sentence in your comment:

I was not so much worried that he would be hurt or killed but that he would be put in a situation where he would be hurt or killed.

And have read it as this:

I was not so much worried that he would be hurt or killed but that he would be put in a situation where he would hurt or kill.

Let me now deal with your comments about him. I will start by saying that I do not think that in general soldiers are a force for good. Not in any positive way. I know of exceptions. But as a general principle they are a needed evil. They wash out in blood the mistakes and the evil of the rulers. Wars my brother I believe start always because somebody or some group or class of people thought they could get away with it. The main job of a soldier is to deter. I believe. To be threatening enough that those who would try to start a war decide either that they will not get away with their crime or that the advantage from it will not be enough to start it. I accept that his motives where good noting only that America’s record in what Americans and Europeans insultingly call the “third world” – there is only one world – is so bad that I find it hard to understand how anyone could believe that he would be protecting others.

But that is mostly a side issue to this which is that I must speak to you of war (Harb) and of enmity and of Jihad (struggle) . Whether he is good or not or whether or not he wishes to be in Irak or not does not alter that he is making war against Islam and against the Dar al-Islam and the Ummah and against the people of Irak – all of us. This is equally true of all the Americans in Irak. Whether they are soldiers of America, or “diplomats” in the “Embassy” or doing some other task. All are here as part of the war of conquest that the American government are making against not only all of the people of Irak but also against Islam. It is impossible therefore that he or they can be a force for good in Irak. Just as it was imposssible for a German soldier to be a force for good in Poland or in Russia or France to be a force for good during the war the Germans made after they had given themselves over to the tyrant Hitler. It is possible for there to be good American soldiers just as it was possible for there to have been good German soldiers during those wars. Soldiers who performed acts of compassion. The merit of those however is an individual merit and shows that within those individuals there remains some spark of submission to the will of God and to his commands.

That however is a mitigation – a mitigation of the fact that by doing as they do every invader in Irak – everyone who is here as part of the invasion is either actively committing a war crime or helping others to commit them. On this there can be no compromise because to do so is to say that we must let their masters get away with what they doing to us.

No.

I am required to submit to God’s will. It is not God’s will that I compromise with evil. It is not God’s will that I lie like a dog in the dust and drag my younger brother down into the dust with me to show that he and I permit every invader who wills it to crush our throats with the sole of their boot.

2:190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.

2:191. And kill them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2:192. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:193. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

There are strict rules about fighting war. It is forbidden to:

1. Kill children or women.
2. Kill the elderly or the infirm.
3. Poison wells.
4. Destroy fruit bearing trees (or crops).
5. Slaughter or steal livestock.
6. Burn or scatter bees.
7. Kill prisoners of war.
8. Humiliate them.
9. Torture.
10. Desecrate bodies.

To give only some examples. I invite you to consider that these have been the laws of war for Muslims 1400 years – long before the Geneva conventions which the invaders of Irak have not in any case adhered to. They have used starvation and thirst as weapons against civilians, they have killed the defenseless, they have killed prisoners, and tortured them, and humiliated them, and desecrated their bodies. And these things are done as a tactic – as a matter of policy, it is not just a “few bad apples”

Yes I recognise that there is truth and compassion too in what you say – but my brother the choice was his and he was not a child. It may well be as you say that his choices and those of many of his comrades were limited by their circumstances but they had choices. And oh yes my brother with every death there is somebody weeping and in grief and feeling that awful feeling of emptiness just exactly placed under the start of the chestbone that pulls at you inside when you breathe even after you stopped crying it pulls like a fist creating emptiness where before there was breath. In Irak we live with this all the time now. And with fear for those we love. I do not think that there is anyone left in Irak who has not experienced it to some degree. It must be I suppose that the families of those whose relatives are among the invaders here suffer some of this also. But if they are willing to accept the benefits of those whom they love being in one of the armies of invasion still trying to subjugate us or a “diplomat” from an invader country trying by different means to do the same thing should they not expect to also suffer the consequences?

I would hope that if it should be that he and I would meet that he would obey the laws. But he is here as an unlawful armed intruder who has forced his way into my home his presence threatens my family. When he leaves – then matters will change with God’s help.

It is how we get beyond those who have sent him here that interests us both I think. How do you and people of good will in America propose to do that?

I have just been able to log in and read your response. As always, I need time to consider what you have said. I will answer shortly. Thank you. I hold you in prayer, as always.

Christ’s peace,

Mike+

Peace to you, Mohammed. Thank you for your words and giving me time to consider them.

I agree with so much of what you have said, my first response is to weep in shame.

I cannot defend our actions in Irak. The best I can say – and what I will try to say for “Dave” and others – is that for some our presence there really is the fruit of good intentions. That in no means makes the acts good (though, as you said, there can be individual acts of compassion even in the midst of horrendous evil). The tragedy is those good intentions are fatally mixed with a deep & idolatrous delusion that holds us tightly in its grasp. A delusion that takes has us on the opposite path of God’s will for us.

As a Christian, I believe God’s will for all his children is reconciliation. In Jesus, God embodied that will of reconciliation … literally becoming human and bridging the gap between humanity and divinity so that nothing could separate God from humanity. God is certainly transcendent – existing above and beyond all things – but the incarnation of God in Christ shows us that God is also imminent – as close to us as can be.

As Christians, I believe we are to be agents of God’s reconciliation. We are to “love one another as (Christ) loved us” and how Christ loved us was giving himself up for us. That is the way of the Cross. And so we participate in God’s reconciliation of creation by submitting to God’s will, and that will is self-sacrificial love – giving ourselves up for the sake of God and each other.

I believe that as with all sin, the force behind all war is idolatry. Idolatry occurs whenever we put ourselves or anything else in the place of God and God’s will. If we were all perfectly following God’s will, there would be no war because we would be always first looking at how to serve each other … and doing so with the greatest humility.

But we are far from perfect. We put our own self-serving ideals and appetites ahead of God’s will. And so, far from being humble and giving ourselves up for the life of the world we convince ourselves that OUR will is righteousness … and in a complete reversal of God’s will in creation when humanity was created in the divine image, we create for ourselves a false God made in our own image. We call that God by the same holy name, but instead of approaching him on our knees in humility seeking wisdom we invoke his name with stiff necks to support our own claims of superiority. It is sacrilege. It is blasphemy. Yet this is what has happened, not just today but throughout time. It is part of the world’s deep brokenness.

As you have said, wealth too becomes an idol. Not only in the craving for acquisition of wealth, but because wealth brings power, those who have wealth become seduced by their own sense of power, by the belief that they are self-sufficient, that they need neither brother, sister or God. And when that happens we put ourselves in the place of God – believing our word is righteousness. This is what has happened to America. We have become so convinced of our own righteousness and superiority, and have created a God in our own image who encourages that beliefs.

The result of this delusion is blindness. We so completely and unthinkingly equate everything American with good that we force a double-standard on the rest of the world that we would never stand for if forced upon us.

We believe there is nothing wrong for us to have military bases in other nations, even if the people of those nations do not wish them there. And yet if Irak or Saudi Arabia were to put a military base outside of my hometown of St. Louis we would consider it completely unacceptable.

We stand in judgment over the world presuming to say who is worthy and not of the terrible responsibility of having nuclear weapons. And yet we assume without question that it is right for us to have them despite the fact that we are the only nation ever to use them in combat and despite the fact that in Irak and other places we have shown ourselves to be incredible abusers of the conventional military might we possess.

In the Gospel according to Luke (Chapter 19), Jesus wept for Jerusalem after entering it just before his death. Here is the passage:

“As Jesus came near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, ‘If you, even you, had only recognized on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. Indeed, the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up ramparts around you and surround you, and hem you in on every side. They will crush you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave within you one stone upon another; because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.’”

I believe God weeps over America in the same way now …because we have just as surely strayed into idolatry. The things that would make for peace are so clear – humility, integrity, discipline, self-sacrificial love. And yet they are now hidden from our eyes. We have made a God of ourselves and militarily, economically and culturally we demand the world worship it.

And, as it is with all Empires, this will be our own fall. And as much as that grieves me, in a way I look forward to that day – not because I hate my country but because I deeply love it. I believe there is deep good in America and in Americans. But I believe that we are so deeply deluded and in the grasp of the idolatry that comes with wealth and power that our better angels are beaten down by our demons.

I believe America needs to be brought low. I pray this does not happen as we have done so consistently to others – with guns and bombs and brutality. I pray that does not happen because I wish for less brokenness in this world, not more. But we need to be brought low to realize what we have done and what we are doing, to beg forgiveness, and to commit to a different life. A life of humility. A life of self-giving love.

The question is, will we be able to develop for ourselves the humility necessary to make this change … or will we be brought low by another? I do not know the answer to that, but I fear it is the latter.

You ask “It is how we get beyond those who have sent him here that interests us both I think. How do you and people of good will in America propose to do that?”

As I can see it, there is only one path. And that is to bring our nation – person by person if necessary – face to face with the global effects of our delusion and idolatry. To battle directly the corporate, governmental and media powers who have an incredible investment in keep the American people feeling self-righteous and afraid. I and others like me need to appeal to our nation’s better angels … the principles upon which our nation was founded and from which, in many ways we have strayed so far from.

That will only happen if we can get Americans to stop talking and start listening. And that is where your voice is so critical. I travel around America talking to groups about ending global poverty and I quote your words and experiences often. We need to learn to see the world through your eyes instead of expecting everyone to see the world through ours. I am very interested in finding ways to broaden this conversation so others can benefit from it.

The other piece of that path is for us to leave Irak and leave as soon as possible. Again, I speak for this wherever I go. However I continually have people say to me “If we leave, Irak will fall into chaos and genocide! It would be irresponsible, having done so much damage, to leave without seeing the country through to stability.”

My answer to that usually is that we need to leave anyway because we are not wanted there. And that our presence there really isn’t contributing to stability. What I want to know is how you would answer that question.

My apologies for writing so long! I am, as always, deeply grateful for God bringing us together.

Christ’s peace,
Mike+

Peace to you Michael I must ask you to wait some days for me to reply I want to think how best to reply.

Comment text removed by Dubhaltach.

Comment text removed by Dubhaltach.

Peace to you Michael and thank you both for your thought and your time. Various matters meant that I had to delay replying. Thank you for your patience.

I am sorry but I cannot agree – having lived all my life under attack from the American government, the American soldiers, and their masters I do not believe even a little bit that there was ever even the smallest amount of benevolent intentions towards my people.

All of the evidence and all of my experience of living in country under sanctions, attack, and then violent armed occupation convinces me that not only is their no benevolent intention towards my people but that the intent is now and always was malign.

Looking in my (wonderful Eid gift) English dictionary I see that the word comes from Latin and means characterised by goodwill. Their policy has always been to dominate us, to force us to their will, to use us a means to an end and in the process to turn us into good obedient little brown people who will do what we are told. Who will leap to do what we are told.

No thank you massah. I am not a house nigger, and I am not a field nigger. I am a sand nigger.

I am a Muslim, I am Iraki, I am already a real person I find it grossly arrogant and insulting that they deny that I am already quite as much a human being as they are and can only "redeem" myself by being some sort of 99th rate imitation of them. I have both duties and rights – one of those rights is self-determination, one of the duties is to defend that right both for myself and for others. Submission to God’s will requires freedom – you have to choose to submit. I by following what is taught to us in The Holy Qur’an and The Hadiths,  and you to yours.

This would quickly become a diatribe – and not to the purpose. I will end this part of my letter to you therefore by saying that I am interested in what people do not in what they say. What every American in Irak who is here as part of the occupation is doing is taking part in the illegal and brutal war of domination that America is waging against my people. What they are doing is actively taking part in an act of monstrous evil. It is in the end analysis what they do and not their intention or what they say is their intention that counts. What they are doing makes them my enemy and the enemy of my people.

And yes we agree on a lot – including the root, idolatry. There is a lot to be said here. But I am short of time 

The question is, will we be able to develop for ourselves the humility necessary to make this change … or will we be brought low by another? I do not know the answer to that, but I fear it is the latter.

You ask "It is how we get beyond those who have sent him here that interests us both I think. How do you and people of good will in America propose to do that?"

As I can see it, there is only one path. And that is to bring our nation – person by person if necessary – face to face with the global effects of our delusion and idolatry. To battle directly the corporate, governmental and media powers who have an incredible investment in keep the American people feeling self-righteous and afraid. I and others like me need to appeal to our nation’s better angels … the principles upon which our nation was founded and from which, in many ways we have strayed so far from.

As I see it and as I have said before. They will not go peacefully. They behave as barbarians. I have said what I think of them before, most recently here:

The Targeted Individual Had Not Been Killed Or Captured During The Clashes

You said earlier in our conversation how do you get them lovingly to stop?

My brother when I misbehaved badly enough my father would beat me. Not because he was a violent man for he was not, and not because he was a vengeful man for he was not, and not because he was an unmerciful and unloving father, for he was not. He was the most loving and compassionate man you can imagine and I am less than a shadow of him in that regard. He beat me because sometimes retribution is the loving thing to do. The American people, the American government, and the American army have no intention not even the smallest of leaving Irak peacefully. They prove it repeatedly by their actions. They must be forced out.

The majority of Americans do not like the war — not because they disapprove of war but because the Iraki resistance is killing enough American troops and mutilating and mentally damaging enough of the others for it to be obvious that not only is this a war that cannot be won but that it is one that America is actively losing.

Perhaps also there is a growing realisation among some that America is not the "good guy" – not even a glow worm unto the nations. That they are seen as what they are – a people who are only "nice" so long as others do their bidding and who erupt into savage violence when thwarted. That they are being held up to mockery and contempt and that they deserve it.

Have you ever seen my brother a fight in school were finally a boy or girl decides "ENOUGH!" and fights with their soul against the one whose behaviour has made their life hellish? They fight not counting the cost determined to end their persecution. When Bush rallied the credulous with his lie of "they-hate-us-because-we’re-us." He found a willing audience. No. We hate them because of their arrogance, their determination to believe the most ridiculous lies and frauds no matter the cost. Their war on terror is a war on Muslims, and there is no Muslim who values freedom who does not hear very clearly what the American government with the acquiescence of its people is saying to them:

"Submit to us or you’re next."

The bully fights only to preserve their unearned image of themselves as powerful and their unearned status and when defeated will be mocked. The Iraki resistance fights to ensure we survive as a people.

That leads me to those who say this to you:

"If we leave, Irak will fall into chaos and genocide! It would be irresponsible, having done so much damage, to leave without seeing the country through to stability."

The genocide is being committed by America. America has already slaughtered more than a million of my people and that is NOT counting those who died under sanctions. They have been engaged upon it for a long time:

Lesley Stahl: We have heard that a half a million children have died [due to sanctions on Iraq, imposed because of US pressure]. I mean, that’s more children than died when–wh–in–in Hiroshima. And–and, you know, is the price worth it?

Ambassador Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.

What on earth makes those who say to  you "If we leave, Irak will fall into chaos and genocide! It would be irresponsible, having done so much damage, to leave without seeing the country through to stability" think that America is a source of stability. The fighting is because the Americans are here. The instability is because the Americans created it.  For any Iraki to believe and trust American intentions here is too stupid for words. It would be like some poor girl hoping that a man who has raped her repeatedly hoping that as he flings himself upon her and forces her to the ground again that this time he will not do it . The American government admits that more than 90% of all attacks in Irak are against the American invaders and always have been. The American armed forces account for an overwhelming proportion of all civilian deaths in Irak and always have had. The American government admits that only 1% of the attacks are against infrastructure are from the resistance. The Americans and their quislings have looted our treasury and handed over the keys of yours to a pack of thieves and those are the people expect us to trust them this time??!!!!???

No.

I pass over in silence your remarks about the nature of Prophet Jesus Son of Mary (PBUH) on this occasion – you are saying what you as a Christian believe, and it is good that you know that as my brother in humanity you can do so and I that I will listen, however much I disagree!

As a Muslim of course I accept neither his divinity or that he was crucified. When I discuss things with my Christian, and yes American too, brothers and sisters in humanity I am required to argue with them kindly as a brother and if we cannot agree to say to them "you go your way and I to mine." There must be no compulsion in matters of religion.

It would be interesting to some day explore these with you. I have always felt a that it must be quite wonderful for my Christian friends to know that Prophet Jesus Messiah (PBUH) will come back to fight alongside the Mahdi to restore justice to the world. That he will walk the Earth a second time is unique among the Prophets (PBUT).

Also it will be useful to me in my future life to have been able to thoroughly find from another Christian priest what his type of Christians believe and judge for myself the differences between that and what other Christians have told me their types of Christians believe. The story of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) weeping over Jerusalem is very beautiful and very sad. There are many references in the Holy Qur’an to peoples turning away from God and what befell and will befall them.  But there is always hope. God always leaves the door open.

Comment text removed by Dubhaltach.

Interesting – thank you my friend. I read his post about when Maryam was at Firedoglake and thought he was correct. Do you know anything about this Arthur Silber person?

Mohammed,

I am just getting to this post tonight and I will need time to think and pray. Your words are very blunt and hard and that is a great gift to me.

I have to be traveling for the next week and will take that time to consider what you have said and to consider what I might say in return.

You are in my prayers — and those of my family — daily.

Christ’s peace,
Mike

Peace be with you, Mohammed. Please know that my prayers for you and your family have continued during my time of silence.

I have started writing a response several times only to stop because the words seemed inadequate. I am determined to give you some response this time so the conversation might continue. I write this realizing it is imperfect and inadequate and hoping that wisdom will emerge as the conversation continues.

You wrote:

“Having lived all my life under attack from the American government, the American soldiers, and their masters I do not believe even a little bit that there was ever even the smallest amount of benevolent intentions towards my people. All of the evidence and all of my experience of living in country under sanctions, attack, and then violent armed occupation convinces me that not only is their no benevolent intention towards my people but that the intent is now and always was malign.”

From your perspective, I have no doubt this is what it looks like. From my perspective it is largely true … but not completely true. Let me try to explain.

One of the remarkable powers we have as human beings is the power to deceive ourselves … the power to rationalize our behavior so we believe we’re acting for the common good when we are really just acting for our personal good. I don’t know if Americans do this better than others, but we certainly do it very well.

There’s a saying that goes “the speaker can convince most people of most things and himself of almost anything.” I think that is what has happened with much of American foreign policy. As a country, we have an unshakable belief in our own goodness – and that is a very dangerous thing. It has allowed us to argue forcefully that our actions are always for the good of the world. We argue it so forcefully that we come to believe it ourselves.

In the case of our invasion and occupation of Irak, I do not know what was going on in the minds and hearts of our leaders when they gave the orders to invade … and the countless orders since that are subjugating and killing your people. I do not know whether they were honest with themselves about their selfish reasons … or whether they had come to so blindly believe in their own goodness and righteousness that they honestly (and quite arrogantly) believed they were doing this to help and save you.

My guess is that it was a combination of both. In many ways it doesn’t matter. The people who led us into this war lied to the American people and lied to the Iraki people (and lied to the entire world at the U.N.) … and whatever their motivation, the act of invasion and occupation was evil.

But this isn’t just about the leaders who led us into this war. It’s about the American people who are supporting this war and particularly the poorer classes of Americans who are supplying the soldiers and government-employed mercenaries who are carrying out this war.

The myth of American goodness (that America is always good) is a powerful force in this country. Our leaders use it at every turn to justify our actions … so much so that it seems they are completely convinced of it themselves. It is a myth that has led hundreds of thousands of young Americans … most of them from the poorest communities where there is little hope for economic and social advancement … to offer themselves for military service in Irak and have put them on the opposite ends of the guns from you.

It does not excuse their actions – as you have said, evil actions are evil actions – but what I have been trying to tell you is that these are not evil people. These are, in many cases, people whose biggest mistake is believing their own leaders when they told them that going to Irak was for a greater good. Then once there, they proceed down the slippery slope of the means justifying the ends until you have the situation you so horribly and eloquently and tragically describe.

Two weeks after your last message, when I was still struggling for a response, I had an opportunity to address a church conference in Iowa. I was the primary speaker for a gathering of nearly 400 church leaders from around the state and it was completely up to me what to say. I thought of our relationship, and how I believe God has brought us together. Particularly in this state (Iowa) that has a key role in the upcoming presidential elections, I realized the only way I could honor what God is doing in bringing us together was to let my voice be a megaphone for your voice. To let these people see the war through your eyes and hear it from your voice.
So as part of my speech, I told the story of our relationship. I read the portion of your writings that I first quoted in my sermon. Then I told of the question I had asked you – the “What do I say to the people who say it would be irresponsible if we left Irak?” and I read your answer to them. I said that yours was a voice we HAD to listen to.

The reaction was mixed. Among those who were against the war, there was widespread agreement. Among many there was shock at the power of your words and how fiercely they indicted us as a country.

After I was finished, a woman came up to me. She looked to be in her late 50s and she was very upset. She stood a few inches from me and screamed at me for 5-10 minutes. She told me I ought to be ashamed of myself. Her husband was a Viet Nam veteran who was spit upon when he came back from that war. Her son had just come back from Irak and was permanently paralyzed from the neck down. She absolutely believed that what her son had given his body for was for the best for our country AND for the people of Irak. She thought I had disrespected and dishonored her husband and son and that I was an evil person.

There was nothing I could say to her. Her anger was so blinding she just needed to scream. I wanted to weep for her, and later I did. Standing there, looking at the incredible pain in her eyes and voice, I realized that she was a casualty of this war, too.

I believe that God loves us all. I believe that God’s love for us is unconditional. As a Christian, I believe that love is embodied in God becoming human in Jesus Christ. I believe that God’s love for you and for your family is infinite just as I believe God’s love for this woman, her husband and her son is infinite.
I’m not saying this anywhere near perfectly – and not much better than my earlier attempts – but I’m going to send this to you anyway because the conversation has to continue.

I think what I’m trying to say is not to excuse anything we have done or are doing … but to say that it’s not as simple as people being all good or all evil. The human heart is much too complex for that. We are made in God’s image and we all fall short of living up to that. Sometimes when we do evil, we honestly believe we are doing right. Sometimes when we do evil, we have just rationalized and convinced ourselves that we are doing right. Sometimes when we do evil, we know we are doing evil and do it anyway. And to the person to whom evil is being done, it probably makes little difference. But it does matter. It matters because if you can see into the hearts of Americans and NOT see pure evil, then maybe forgiveness is possible. Maybe reconciliation is possible. Maybe we have a future.

Peace to you Michael. I will pray, and think, and answer when I can.

Peace to you Michael:

I come back to this – I think it is important however that I make something very clear before we proceed. Every American in Irak and every other foreigner in Irak taking part in the violent American effort to subjugate my people and loot their lives, their future, and their God given right to live free of opression, fear, and famine, is my enemy and the enemy of my people. Behaving as they behaved and continue to behave is an act of open enmity. The word for a hostile foreign power is “enemy” and America and her allies in her brutal attempts to grind my people into the dust are behaving with open enmity. The word for those Irakis who, for whatever reason, are helping them in this is “traitor”

The overiding concern of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) when confronted with enmity was to try to turn his enemy into a friend. Only when there was no alternative did he resort to force.

Your government has made it very clear by their actions that they have no intention of leaving – that they intend to subjugate us and that they will do whatever it takes to subjugate us – no matter how barbarous that “whatever” may be.

We are in this conversation I believe to try to start to lay a foundation for what comes after the war.

After they have been driven out: Reconciliation? – yes one may hope so, and strive for it. But it will take a long time. When I said that my grandchildren’s grandchildren would teach their grandchildren to hate America for her barbarous actions here I meant it.

Peace to you Michael. I have read again this and our previous conversations.

First let me thank you for your act in Iowa. Doing so took courage which I acknowledge and respect. Thank you  also telling me of the woman with whom you had that encounter. Certainly she too is a casualty of the war being waged by America against my people, as is her son. Her pain must be immense – how not? Your words brought back to me the tears and cries of despair of she who bore me, who loved me, and who inspired me with hope, as she held what was left of Hussayn to her and wept. I remember also the fear in her eyes on the nights when it was the turn of my father, Hussayn, and myself, to go and help man the road blocks. Or whenever there was a bomb.

I understand a little I think how she and that poor woman in Iowa must have felt for their sons. When I play with my younger brother Ali or on the days when he is in pain and I help him bathe and see the scars on his body. I know a little I think of the rage and despair that my mother must have felt and that poor woman must feel – no wonder you wept.  She is to be pitied, and if possible helped, not condemned.

That is my heart that speaks. She and my mother were sisters in humanity – but one of them did not know it, she does not know it now, I think it likely in her grief and rage that that poor woman in Iowa never will know it. That she must cling to her illusion of "America The Good" for comfort for to let go of it would be to know that her grief and rage and pain are a sacrifice in the service of an evil cause and not in the service of good.

But my brain speaks also. For whatever reason her son chose to become part of a brutal campaign to subject by violence a people other than his own. Actions (and inactions – what you as a follower of the Prophet Jesus Son of Mary PBUH, would I believe call "sins of omission") have consequences. Yes her pain must be immense, yes his misfortune is immense. But Michael if you choose to join an army and that army at the behest of cynical and corrupt government wages a brutal war of aggression and subjection and does so moreover on the basis of one lie after another you are hardly an innocent victim. My heart pities him – a little, but my heart and my brain combine to point out to me that that is one less armed violent intruder into my people’s home trying to put the American boot on our necks. My heart and my brain combine also to point out to me that he will be a living warning to other young Americans – "this could happen to you." They combine furthermore to point out to me that that is one American soldier who is no longer capable of inflicting suffering and death on my people. A victim? Yes. An innocent victim? By no means.

America and Americans are not the "good guys" here they are the worst of the "bad guys" and their hands are dripping with innocent blood.

What you have written here disturbs me:

"But this isn’t just about the leaders who led us into this war. It’s about the American people who are supporting this war and particularly the poorer classes of Americans who are supplying the soldiers and government-employed mercenaries who are carrying out this war."

Whatever about your soldiers there is no excuse for becoming a mercenary. There never was an excuse for becoming a mercenary. There never will be an excuse for becoming a mercenary.

To Hell with them.

Similarly to Hell with their families who are content to reap the riches that these killers for money earn from their vile trade.

There is no excuse for living off the earning of killers for hire. There never was an excuse for living off the earning of killers for hire. There never will be an excuse for living off the earning of killers for hire.

This applies also to the staff of all the contractors in Irak – they have chosen to come here to make money off my people’s blood. The fact that many of them are impoverished and are trying to lift themselves from poverty does not mitigate the fact that they have chosen to make money by battening on my people’s suffering.

To hell with them also.

The one exception to this is those unfortunates mostly from India, the Philippines, Thailand,  and Nepal who were brought here under false pretenses by labour sub-contractors mostly from Kuwait. For them one can only have pity.

In your discussion of the myth of American goodness you say many things that are true. But you have not directly mentioned the most important aspect of it. Americans believe that by virtue of being American that they are intrinsically morally better is a nation that believes it is a master nation. A master race. Recent western history teaches us what such a people will do.

It does not matter whether members of such a nation are evil or not. What matters is that they commit evil actions and that they have no intention of stopping committing those actions. What I see when I see an American here is an enemy.

When you speaking of forgiveness of reconciliation you are of course operating within the framework of Western Christian thought. But I am neither a Christian nor a Westerner. I am a Muslim I am Iraki. I look first to the Holy Qur’an, then to the Hadiths, and then to the Shariah, only then do I look to other traditions and take what seems to me to be compatible with Islam. In my immediately preceding reply to you I said this:

"The overriding concern of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) when confronted with enmity was to try to turn his enemy into a friend. Only when there was no alternative did he resort to force."

My duty as a Muslim is to work with other Muslims to ensure that the Dar al-Islam is inhabited by a spiritually, mentally, and physically healthy family who submit freely to God’s will and who treat each other with justice and compassion. My duty as a Muslim is to fight the oppressor of my people. Once the enemy is expelled then we can start to rebuild. What I and you mean as a minimum when we use the word "peace" is "a situation where nobody wants to fight". What most of your people mean by "peace" however is something very different. What they mean is by "peace" is "a situation in which everyone else does what Americans tell them to do."

No.

Reconciliation? Forgiveness? It is your people who are the aggressors here. It is mine who are being boiled alive in their own blood. You left out a very important step. The first step to reconciliation and forgiveness.

As a Muslim and one of the people unwarrantably and unlawfully under attack I must tell my brother in humanity that that first step is repentance

It is your people who must take that step. It is your people who are the agressors who unleashed a tide of innocent blood in which my people are being boiled alive. It is your people who are the transgressors here. Until they take that step even if the fighting stops your people and mine will not be at peace we will at best be merely at truce.

Peace to you, Mohammed.

Thank you again for your response … and once again you have given me words I cannot respond to without further thought and prayer. There are many things at the front of my mind right now, but I need to spend a day or two with this.

You and your family are in my prayers.

Mike

Comment text removed by Dubhaltach.

Peace to you Michael. I hope that your celebrations of the birth of the Prophet Jesus (PBUH) were a time of peace and joy for you and family and pray that the New Year will be better for you and your loved ones than 2007 was.

Mohammed.

My apologies (it seems like I’m always giving these) for the delay. I had thought you were still on your Hajj (it occurs to me I have no idea how long that takes … I am eager to hear about it) and have not checked back here until today. Now that I know you are back (and, it looks like have been back for some time?), I will return to composing my reply.

Blessings and peace,

Mike

Comment text removed by Dubhaltach.

Grace and peace to you, Mohammed.

You are in my prayers daily, and I share word of our conversation and share your thoughts as often I can with those among whom I travel and work.

Over the past month, I have been thinking and praying about our conversation and trying to put myself in your place and see things as you see them. That is, ultimately, impossible … but I have found through prayer I can ask God to let your words work on my heart and I feel I am getting the beginnings of understanding – but only the very beginnings.

One thing that was very helpful to me was a word that Du had for me. He said that Westerners like me tend to think what people believe is important and that their motives are important – that Christianity is an orthodoxic faith. Islam and Judaism are orthopraxic … primarily interested in what people do, not so much in their motivation or what they believe. Not that motivation and belief aren’t important … but these are secondary to actions.

I looked back at our conversation in light of these words and found a continual back and forth between us. You have been talking about what we Americans have been doing in Irak. While acknowledging this, I, thinking of my student “Dave” and knowing his heart as I do, have been talking about his motivations and what he believes. My point has not been to justify the actions but in hopes of communicating that there was good in this one soldier … and maybe in others as well.

I realize now that regardless of the truth of this (and I believe it is true that there is good or a desire for good in the hearts of at least some Americans who are in Irak), their actions – still freely chosen, no matter how much coercion the government has exercised on them — are the overriding factor. Reading back over your posts, there is a consistent refrain of “America must get out. America must repent. THEN and only then can we talk about reconciliation.”

The evil actions must stop. Good actions must replace them. The evil actions must be repudiated. Only then can right relationship be possible. Until then, every American in Irak is your enemy and enemies must be resisted.

Is that a fair characterization of what you have been saying. If it is, it makes sense to me.

Where I believe we have a meeting place in Christian scripture is in the Gospel of Matthew. Matthew was written for a Jewish audience and its purpose was to convince the Jewish community of the truth of Christ. Of all the Gospels it refers the most to Jesus as fulfillment of Hebrew scripture. It is also the most orthopraxic of the Gospels – the one where Jesus’ emphasis is not on what you believe but what you do … right living.

If this is common ground for us – that right actions are of paramount importance and that for the Christian and the Muslim that means submission to God (I would call it discipleship, but I believe it is essentially the same thing – meant to be total submission of our lives to the divine) – then I would like to push a little further in our conversation about actions.

I agree with you that repentance is a necessary action for America. I believe it is the only action that will, in the end, save our country. Our pride has risen to a lethal level – not just for you but for us. You put it in very difficult terms, terms that my initial impulse was to resist, but it is true that while we would never use the phrase that we do consider ourselves a “master race.” I work in the aid & development industry – and one of the biggest problems is Americans charging into a place of poverty and assuming we know best, rushing to “fix” everything, and not listening at all to the people who are there.

As I have said before, we need humility … and if it does not happen of our own accord through repentance, God will humble us in other, more painful ways.

My organization’s board met at the end of November to pray, talk and chart our mission for the next year. We realized that a call to confession, repentance and change of life had to be a central part of what we do or our efforts to follow Christ would have no meaning. I will say more about this and the particular challenge repentance is for Americans in another post, but for now let me say that we agree on this point.

We also agree that the American troops must leave and leave at once. I will spend no more time on this.

But here I do have a question for you. I have been exchanging emails with my former student, who is with the U.S. Army in Irak. Currently, some of his work is helping repair and rebuild schools. That seems to me to be an action that is good. It could even be a part of repentance – of repairing the damage that is done. I am interested in what you think of Americans …. even American troops … who are engaged in rebuilding schools and hospitals and helping build up infrastructure in Irak. What of those actions? Are they good actions? Or does the evil of their presence far outweigh any benefits of actions such as these?

Also, he reports that in the largely Sunni areas that he has been stationed, “the general population has actually switched sides and is now supporting us, in a movement that is largely termed the ‘Awakening.’ This, more than anything, is a chance for real change in Iraq. Which is not to say that Iraqis don’t hate us. Most of them still do, but they hate or fear other extremists more. “

He reports that much of this change in the Sunni population toward the Americans comes from the security the American forces are providing against “extremists.” Is that protection of innocent civilians against “extremists” (and I put that in quotes because I am not sure exactly what he means when he uses that term) a good action? Again, is this protection and security a good, or does the evil of our presence far outweigh any benefits of actions such as these?

I appreciate your patience in waiting for my responses. This conversation continues to move and challenge me. I do look forward to some day when we can meet face to face.

Christ’s peace,
Mike+

You are looking for good where this is none, as to the awakening councils I am too angry to trust myself to comment on them. I suggest you read this:

IRAQ: Awoken to a New Danger.

I can a little understand I think why you need to try to console yourself that a little good may come. But it is false comfort. A lie. Your soldiers are the perfect ambassadors of your society, arrogant, predatory and violent.

Your soldiers have created a society in which depending on which department of your puppet government in the green zone you listen to we have 4½ or 5 million orphans. Of those your puppet government in the green zone admits that 500,000 are living on the streets.

Now that that has not worked your troops emulate civilised behaviour in a few places but always with the same goal. The same EVIL goal to plant the American boot on our throats.

And when pretending to be civilised and pretending to want to rebuild Irak from the destruction that America has caused does not work, why then they revert to their criminal barbarous type, bombing civilian areas.

Your former student talks of “Sunni” areas. There was no such distinction before he and his fellow American barbarians cynically, deliberately, and viciously, brutalised our society. Ask him to explain why in that famous deck of cards of the top officials and officers in Saddam’s government 36 of them are Shia.

Once he has explained that to your satisfaction ask him which of my parents bodies I should dig up desecrate. The girl I am going to marry is Sunni. Ask him which of our children, should God bless us with offspring, will I cast out on to the streets to starve?

How do you think I feel my brother when a child younger than my brother Ali offers himself to me, to do what ever perverted act I wish to his body, if I will only give him food?

Stop trying to pretend that genocide for that is what your country has done to my people and continues to do them is anything other than savagely barbaric unmitigated evil. Stop trying to pretend that America has any role for good in my land, maybe generations from now there can be some form of reconciliation. But for the forseeable future America and Americans have forfeited any right to be considered by my people as other than what they are.

Barbarians.

What do we owe to barbarians?

Nothing, we owe your government and people nothing not even the chance to redeem yourselves. For as long as you Americans are in my country plundering, looting, and murdering, evil will stalk my land. Your country has created a hell beyond the worst imaginings and still Americans whore out the suffering of my people saying “Oh, let us help”

Why do they do this? — So that they can feel good about themselves. My people’s lives and freedom are infinitely more valuable to me than the feelings of some coward who refuses to admit to themselves what is obvious to everyone outside of America. We do not want your “help” we will resist any attempt to impose it. We know from the bitterest experience what your country means when it talks about “freedom” and “help”

We resist because we have no alternative. Faced with the ravening wolf you fight or be devoured.

In the Holy Qur’an God teaches us that you never submit to evil and you never compromise with it.

As well to trust the ravening wolf as to trust America when you have something it wants.

No, we endured Hulegu and rebuilt. We can do so again.

JUST GO!

TAKE YOUR

BARBARIC CHILD

MURDERES IN

UNIFORM THAT

YOU PEOPLE

CALL AN

ARMY AND

GO!

I will be writing more here tonight, but I wanted to share my latest posting on the blog of my organization to give you more of an idea of what we’re trying to do here.

http://e4gr.blogspot.com/2008/01/false-gospel-of-mindless-consumption-by.html

Christ’s peace,

Mike+

Grace and Peace to you, Mohammed,

Thank you for your words. It has taken me awhile to consider how to respond. Even as I start this I am not sure.

So I will start by again saying thank you for your words. I am not sure what will become of this relationship, but I know that goodness will only come insofar as we are honest with one another. When two people are face-to-face, there is so much that is communicated through tone and posture that cannot be communicated online. Had I been saying the words I last wrote to your face, I would have been able to see before I had gotten very far the pain and anger they were bringing up in you … and we could have dealt with that as men and perhaps as friends.

As it was, I am grateful you chose to be honest with me about that anger and pain. I sometimes wonder what God has in mind for us in this relationship … but I feel that part of it lies in me experiencing your anger and pain as much as I can through this distant and imperfect medium.

In America, we have not had a war fought on our own land in nearly 150 years … and have not fought a foreign power on our own land for more than 225 years. We do not know what it is like. The only pain we feel from war is the pain of loss of those who do not come back from far away … or come back broken and maimed.

That pain is real … but it is not the pain of watching children die. It is not the pain of watching our homes burned. It is not the pain of watching those we love starve and die because there is no food, no medicine.
We do not know your pain. We do not know your anger. We … I … will probably never know it. And so the very least I can do is bear it in whatever form you choose to share it with me … or direct it at me. You are inviting me into your world, into your home. It is an invitation I do not take lightly. I recognize how rare it is. Your home is holy ground, and even as I walk on it in this online conversation, I want to take my shoes off and venture in with respect and honor.

I also have tried to invite you into my world, into my home. My hope has been that you could somehow see the goodness in the people who are doing such horrible things – the things I never see and that never get reported back here. As you love your people, so I love mine, and so I want you to see that there is good in them.

But I am beginning to learn that for me to think that should matter to you at this time in this place is foolish. Perhaps someday far from today we will get to a point where we can try to have that conversation again. But for now, I will push that point no longer. It would be disrespectful of me to try.

But I struggle with where to go from here. And here I need to continue to be as honest with you as you have been with me.

The first time I went to Africa, it was to spend six weeks in Ghana. I went with the typical American attitude … that as an American, I was there to help and give – without considering that I might have a tremendous amount to learn and to receive from the beauty and giftedness of the Ghanaian people. Humility is not a virtue we Americans have in abundance (quite an understatement). I spent the first half of my time there feeling guilty that I wasn’t “doing” enough … until I realized that the best I could do was to listen and carry what I had heard and seen back to my country in hopes that my heart and those with whom I shared it with would be changed. What I needed to do was be humble and listen and be changed.

That is some of what I feel here … but I am conflicted. I know that I am learning many difficult and painful things. I know that my prayers have become deeper and I struggle mightily with what God would have me do with the reality that is being revealed to me. I know the greatest gifts for me in our relationship are understanding and the love I have developed for you not just through this conversation but through daily holding you and your family in prayer.

I know what is valuable about this for me. What is the value for you? What can I offer you? What can I give? I have tried to offer some understanding of my people who kill your people only to realize I am walking down the wrong road in trying that.

So as I’ve wrestled with how to answer, I keep coming back to that question. What do YOU want from me? If it is in my power to give, I will do my best to do so. If my role in this relationship is much as it was in Ghana … to listen and receive and be changed and go to my countrymen and women and try to change them, then I will take that mission to heart.

But I want to hear from you, my brother in humanity. What do you want from me? And if that question only shows the further depth of my ignorance, I ask your forgiveness. It is the best I can offer right now.

Christ’s peace,

Mike+

Peace to you Michael. I need to pray and think and will answer within the week.

Of course you love your people – how not? To love truly is to love those whom you love despite their faults and to strive lovingly to remove those faults and replace them with good.

Peace to you Michael I am answering you more fully elsewhere and will mail you when I have finished. It is very late or perhaps very early here.

The centrality of Love in Prophet Jesus’ (PBUH) message is wholly admirable, who can doubt that it comes from God? It grieves me that many of the Ummah have forgotten the centrality of Love in Islam. Perhaps we should discuss the practical manifestations of love?

As agreed between the two of us and my good friend and the brother of my heart Dubhaltach this part of our conversation is now opened in preparation for bringing our dialogue forward.

Peace to you, Mohammed.

I have waited for an email from you containing your fuller response while I considered your words … and finally decided to respond to what you have already posted.

The centrality of Love in each of our holy scriptures is our common ground. It is what draws me to you and I believe it is what draws you to me. That is also to say that it is God, from whom all love springs, who draws us to each other.

Let me comment briefly on each of the passages from Holy Qur’an that you quoted:

On the Day [of Judgement] when each soul will find itself confronted with all that it has done of good and all that it has done of evil [each soul} will yearn that there could be an enormous space of distance between it and that evil. God bids you beware of Him. And God is Full of Pity for His slaves.

There cannot be love without judgment. As Christians, we believe Jesus’ very presence with us on earth is evidence that the love of God who loved us first in creation has not left us but remains with us. But Jesus’ message of love was also a message of judgment. That we would be judged by (as you phrased it) the practical manifestations of love. Jesus speaks of us being judged by how we love – by how we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison.

And yet the greatest judgment is love itself. I believe the Holy Qur’an is true when it speaks about that Day of Judgment where we are each confronted with good and evil we have done and wish there could be an enormous space of distance between us and that evil. On that day, standing in the presence of God, the presence of that infinite love, how could we not wish to distance ourselves from that evil? Not out of fear of punishment but out of the great pain we will feel from seeing how we fell short of God’s loving will for our lives. God will be full of pity for us on that day, because the pain we will feel at our own evil will be its own judgment on us.

We all will experience that pain. It will be the day when our ignorance is stripped away and we will see our lives for what they really have been. And there will be wailing. And there will be begging for mercy and forgiveness. And God will lovingly provide. But it will not be easy.

Say (O Prophet), “If you love God, follow me; God will love you and grant you the protection of forgiveness. He will save you from trailing behind [in humanity] and in the community of nations. And God is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Jesus says, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” And the commandments of Jesus are this – love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

As human beings we love imperfectly. I know that only too well from my own life. And God is merciful and forgiving. But that does not mean there are not difficult and painful lessons to be learned from where we fall short. But through it all, God is merciful and forgiving.

Thus it is by God’s mercy that you treated them gently. Had you been rough, hard-hearted, [in how you treated them] they would certainly have parted from you. So forgive them and ask protection for them, consult them in (important) matters. Once you have decided, put your trust in God. [For] Surely God loves those who trust in Him.

I see a strong relationship between this passage and the two before. God’s loving will for us is for us to live lives of compassionate good (what Jesus called “keeping my commandments). But there is a great gap – not just the gap which we will wish to put between ourselves and the evil we have done on the day of judgment, but the gap between the potential for loving goodness we have in our lives and what we actually achieve. Some of that gap is willfully casting aside the opportunity to do good. Some of that gap is missing the opportunity to do good through our own ignorance. Some of that gap is willfully and knowingly doing evil. Whatever the cause, the gap of falling short will be the same and the pain we feel will be the same. And God’s mercy will be the same.

One of our greatest shortcomings as human beings is we cannot fully see that gap between our potential for loving goodness – the true call of God in our lives – and how we are actually living our lives. As I have said before, we as Americans have become so convinced of our own goodness that we refuse to acknowledge such a gap even exists. And when people try to point it out to us, it is painful and we resist mightily.

Of course, I love my people – just as, of course, you love your people. Part of the role God is using you to fulfill in my life is gently (and occasionally not so gently! But always lovingly.) showing me where I and we as a people are falling short of God’s will. That is painful. But I know it is a part of God working on me. I know it is a part of God loving and showing mercy to me.

So as you are doing to me, I have the responsibility to do for my people. To point out that gap to them – and to do that gently but firmly. Not being rough and hard-hearted (what we would call “judgmental”) is very hard. But I am saved by two things. The first is knowing that if I just scream at them it will do know good. The second is knowing that I fall short of good every bit as much as they do (if not more) and that I am every bit as much a prisoner of my evil actions as they are. At the same time I struggle daily with what of my actions are being gentle for good and practical reasons and what is just me shrinking back out of fear.

I wonder what role God has me playing in your life? In the lives of the people whom you touch? Perhaps that is yet to be revealed and perhaps we will never know.

But I still wonder.

You suggested we should discuss the practical manifestations of love. Let me start that conversation with a question for you:

Tell me stories of how you see people in your life manifesting love. How has that changed you? How has that made you follow God’s will more closely? How do those stories give you hope?

I will keep him and the whole team in my prayers.

peace,

Mike+

Peace to you Michael,

Part of the role God is using you to fulfill in my life is gently (and occasionally not so gently! But always lovingly.)

If someone must needs first make excuses for mercenaries and then quotes, to me, of all people, one of the soldiers who are brutalising my people speaking approvingly of a notorious death squad then a harsh response is called for. :-)

Love? Perhaps :-), I would say instead that doing so is my duty towards you as my brother in humanity.
I am back in Baghdad. You have mail:-).

Mohammed Ibn Laith.